Update 5 for The Lord of the Rings Online™ is coming soon, and it adds five new instances to the game. In total, there are three new three-man instances, one six-man and one 12-man, and each of these instances will continue the ongoing story in Rise of Isengard. In an effort to find out more, Turbine community team member Kyle Horner sat down with a handful of LOTRO designers to discuss the trials and tribulations faced by them as designers – and the ones they themselves were designing for players to face, as well.

Participants in this (admittedly large) Developer Roundtable include: Content Design Manager Derek Flippo, Senior Content Designer Jared Hall-Dugas, Senior Content Designer Joseph Barry, Worldbuilder Dan Ouellette, Content Designer Bob Hess and Web Content Developer Kyle Horner.

Kyle "FordyTwo" Horner: Who's working on Fangorn’s Edge? It sounds kind of like a survival mode.

Jared "Amlug" Hall-Dugas: You might call it a tribute to Frogger … [Laughs]

Kyle: I was taking you seriously for a moment there.

Jared: Well, it kind of is… but it's not really. The idea is you-

Derek Flippo: Don't ever do that.

Jared: What?

Derek: [Points at Jared] Take you seriously.

Kyle: I know, but it's fun to humor him.

Jared: [Laughs] The idea is basically you're running up through a lumber camp, the orcs are cutting down parts of Fangorn to fuel their war machine and create all their siege weaponry. Players need to avoid the main path because there's an army of orcs, so they have to dodge in-between traffic to get where they need to be, essentially.

Kyle: Will players be seeing a big Ent presence?

Jared: Well I don't know, there's a big boss at the end… they'll have to find out. No, yeah there is once they get up to the top, the Ents are upset and fighting everybody because they don’t really distinguish between different types of small creatures.

Kyle: They just see small things and crush them.

Jared: Yep, and if you're a Lore-master you have fire so they probably don't like you most of all.

Kyle: How about Pits of Isengard?

Jared: That's me as well.

Kyle: That's also you, okay- so let's talk about The Pits a little too.

Jared: The Pits are basically a choice at this point; you'll fight through an area first. The idea is that Saruman is kind of doing all sorts of evil things. It's a hint towards later-on with the raid. But basically he's creating evil armies. He's trying to raise an army of Fire-orcs and also an army of abominations.

The players in Tier 1 will be able to choose witnessing one wing or the other, and in Tier 2 they'll go through the whole thing.

Kyle: Looking over all the instances (three different three-men, one six-man and one 12-man raid) I can see a lot of variety across each instance. Was that intentional?

Jared: At the beginning we always sit down and do our best to create multiple types of spaces that have different outside, inside, lighting, gameplay and other elements.

Kyle: Do you guys usually start designing from a mechanics standpoint or does the process begin elsewhere?

Joe "Jwbarry" Barry: Depends on the designer.

Bob "Maurath" Hess: A lot of the times we sit down and have a discussion about a general theme for the instances. This time we knew that we wanted to feature Isengard and the things Saruman was working on, and we took a couple of different hints from that. Also, Joe [Barry] had some inspiration for the raid and then we looked towards that, and we sort of spread out from there and decided where we would fit in within the overarching schemes of Saruman and what we wanted to address with it.

Kyle: How did the team address the challenge of making Saruman and Isengard powerful and yet also satisfying without it being lore-breaking?

Dan Ouellette: We sat down and said, "All right, we're doing Orthanc. Where can we do this? We have the tower itself, we have the under-workings of Isengard, then we have the surface of Isengard and Fangorn is close…" After looking at all our ideas we knew we didn't want to have them all in the tower, because that would be a very boring cluster. It's a very small space and in general… just really long.

 

So we all pretty much split up and it actually worked out really well. I'm doing mine on the outbuildings on the inside of the courtyard. Joe's doing partially in the courtyard, partially in the tower. Jared's doing Fangorn and underneath [Isengard], and Bob's doing underneath as well.

Joe: We went through a lot of different possibilities when we were initially building the outline and high level story. We couldn't get away from the inescapable truth that we are in Isengard and with that comes a very clear expectation that, if there's a cluster in Isengard, we're fighting Saruman. That is what every player is going to want and expect to be happening.

But- he's a freaking wizard. So, you can't win, but you have to win. So we went through… shoot, half a dozen different potentials of the structure and story for how we're interacting with Saruman. Does it involve Rohan and Theodred, or the orc programs? Does it involve Saruman's voice, this and that, etc?

We landed on rings, because there was a thread in the book to hang ourselves from, but we couldn't get away from the inescapable truth that this cluster can only end with Saruman. And then, it's a question of, "How do we take the number two iconic villain in this series and do that justice?"

Jared: And not kill him.

Joe: And not win!

Kyle: You can't kill him, you can't win, but there needs to be a challenge.

Joe: And it needs to be satisfying.

Bob: There needs to be a victory and there needs to be a way to defeat Saruman in some manner, but it can't be a true victory of "You've killed him."

Jared: And the war is over.

Joe: This is Saruman and it has to feel – and this is one of the points that Derek [Flippo] hammered with the design stuff – it can't be a "really cool" raid fight. It has to be a Saruman fight, and those are two very different things. Getting the character right, actually doing animations for him that include redoing all the idle animations. He'll never run, he'll always walk. He'll never swing his staff for an attack; it'll all be magical-based attacks. Saruman's movements are smooth and flowing, and we're making sure the character comes across right. It's a totally different challenge.

Kyle: Let's take a quick step back. Dargnákh Unleashed also sounds pretty cool. I understand you worked on that one Dan?

Dan: I was trying for more of a non-combat approach. Dargnákh Unleashed heavily emphasizes story tie-ins, activate-able items and moving around in team based combat. Basically what you're going to want to try doing is lead this troll through his rampage around the out-buildings of Isengard, causing havoc and sabotaging operations. When you get to the end, the troll has to be dealt with, but along the way you're wrecking a bunch of stuff and a lot of destructible assets will come into play.

 

Kyle: How difficult is it to incorporate the destructible assets and non-combat gameplay into the three-man instance?

Jared: [Laughs]. It was really, really easy.

Dan: Oh yeah, no problem! No, yeah, this is my second instance so from my own personal standpoint I'm learning a lot. Every fight is essentially like designing a boss because of the complexity of what I'm trying to do. I can't just drop five monsters, have a little pod of combat, and then have a boss fight every couple pods – it's not like that. It's more like every section you're going through is scripted in some manner and there's going to be drama and feedback effects, sound, voice-over; every portion of the fight is very complicated on my end.

Joe: It's totally different than anything we've ever done in a three-man.

Jared: Last time around, Bob did a great job at that with the Oatbarton area. We try to make smaller instances different than any other space. They're not the most difficult space in the world. There's no kind of "Bang your head against traditional boss battles". It's more about kind-of flavorful instances and having fun.

Joe: It's like they're gimmicky but without the negative tones of "gimmick".

Kyle: Each one has a good hook that makes it a little unique and fun.

Jared: Yeah, and I think Dan nailed our design goals with Dargnákh Unleashed. It's something different that I've never seen before; the instance is fun and it's an experience I want to repeat.

Bob: You can't rely on the same types of traditional class and group make-ups, because you can't expect every group to have a tank, DPS and healer. It's one of the interesting challenges when you're working on something like a three-man. You sometimes want someone who might be able to take a hit or two and you might want a healer, but the sort of hard-and-fast rules of what best makes up a group in a three-man is a lot different than when you're working with six- and 12-man spaces.

It's an exciting and difficult demand when working on a three-man. The types of challenges you present to people have to be a little more outside-the-box. Maybe you're attacking this big cauldron, and it's spewing out things and you're running away, or you're poking and prodding a troll as it goes through and destroys a whole bunch of stuff. It's really a fun opportunity to explore as a designer.

Dan: If you look at the three-man's we've had in the past, like Inn of the Forsaken, even those were different from your typical instance just because of the way they were designed.

Kyle: How does the new six-man compare to the experiences found in the three new three-mans?

Bob: The Foundry offers an opportunity where we can use a wide array of game mechanics, but we also have to make sure that we cover the basics. We make sure there are always things specific class roles have the opportunity to do: For example, the need for someone to hold threat. This ensures players have a defined idea of what they're going to be doing. Meanwhile,  I did a lot of work in creating challenging movement and kiting mechanics, along with developing interactive environments that require players to pay attention and use all of the tools that they have available to them.  I think it brings a certain level of challenge which is different from a straight DPS check.

In travelling down into the Foundry below Isengard, you're going through the actual inner workings of a large foundry. One room is a large smelting area, and you're dealing with these large claws of raw materials with the opportunity to control and drop pieces, creating interactive terrain effects. Meanwhile, you still have to carefully deal with a creature.  One of the various bosses in the area is a large Bellow Troll who happens to be in a room with a special surprise.  Part of the story of the Foundry leading up to the raid is discovering over the course of things what Saruman is working on... but we don't want to spoil it completely.

 

Kyle: It should certainly require a good amount of coordination on any group's part.

Bob: And that's part of the thing about the six-man experience – it's a little harder on the difficulty meter. The type of coordination required by players is tighter and a little more difficult.

Kyle: And was that maybe part of your thought process when making the instance?

Bob: Oh absolutely. That's normally what we look at with these types of clusters. We like to see the six-men as good onramps towards people going into raiding. It's also a rewarding and difficult challenge on its own, but the step-up in the challenge level and type of coordination should teach players the sort of skills and thinking they'll need as they go into the raids.

Joe: The three-man's are doing the same for the six-man's.

Kyle: Right, it's like stepping-stones.

Joe: Ultimately we want people in the largest group size and hardest difficulty that we can nudge them up towards. Ideally players are thinking, "Sweet! We handled a three-man on Tier II and we totally almost finished the challenge, and that six-man over there, from what we've heard, isn't too bad. Let's see if we can find a couple buddies." Our goal is to get people to push a little bit outside their comfort zone and explore and find a little bit more of the game.

Jared: Or the "Punch You in the Face" meter.

All: [Laughter]

Joe: Yeah, "That wasn't so bad."

Jared: "Take this!" [Swings]

All: [Laughter]

 

Kyle: Okay, let's talk about the multi-boss raid. From the beginning, what was the objective with The Tower of Orthanc?

Joe: We wound up looking through all the different story options. We landed on the fact there are two spots in the book, in the same little section, where Gandalf recounts when Saruman captured him. There is a line when Saruman initially greeted Gandalf, where he says that Saruman had a ring on his finger. Then, just before he captured him, Saruman calls himself "Saruman Ring-maker" and then we never hear about that ring ever again. It's the only time it's ever mentioned; it's one of the few gigantic loose threads in Lord of the Rings. Tolkien never resolved it, and left it to be.

So yeah, we are taking that and we are dangling from it as hard as we absolutely can. It's well known that Saruman was into ring-making, researched it a lot, and did a ton of that kind of stuff. So our theory is that Saruman built a ring-forge, kind of aping Sauron and crafted himself a ring and a couple minor rings which he has given conveniently to the other bosses in the raid. Which, we will then defeat them, gather up the rings and then our ultimate goal is to destroy Saruman's ring.

If we can do that then we can win the raid – we haven't beaten the wizard – but we have slightly weakened him and maybe that's why fireballs don't land on Helm's Deep.

So, it gives us a thread of opportunity to tap in and answer a question, "Why do we never hear about this?" because brave heroes came and destroyed it. So the rough cluster story is we come into the three-man instances to wreak havoc, destroy a bunch of stuff and be a little gnat that's flying around. We get into the six-man and it's kind of like, "Oh it's a forge! Let's smash that and- wait, the forge did what? Aaaauuuuh, we should- we should fix that."  And that transitions into the raid and solving that problem.

It's a five-boss raid, a lot of the design theory behind Ost Dunhoth, whereas Draigoch was very much the Michael Bay one-hundred-million-dollar summer blockbuster. It was a lot about flash and effects, and holy crud it's huge. This raid goes back to the more technical roots and gameplay-driven raiding style.

Kyle: So give me a basic overview of the raid and its bosses, because they sound pretty awesome.

Joe: You'll walk in the door and have three wings open to you that you can go into. One of them is a laboratory-type setting, one of them we call "Steamworks," and one of them is in Undergard. First boss is a pair of Dunlendings. Saruman thinks that you're here to learn from him. He is this crazy master powerful wizard, so – in his mind – why would you come for any other reason than to apprentice with him? Clearly he is so awesome that in order for you to go from hero to superhero, you need him.

Jared: And one of his goals is he's trying to wrap you in his will.

Joe: He thinks you're there to serve his purposes through his methods. Saruman's got a pair of Dunlendings, a Dunlending abomination, a troll and an Orc shaman who are all in similar spots as you. Saruman has given each of them rings. He's expecting everyone to prove themselves, and that's what the boss fights are, essentially. The winner gets elevated and the winner he will teach more to, and winds up in a better standing with Saruman; run the gauntlet and he'll teach you everything.

 

So we're going through the player's angle of trying to collect these little rings, because that's the only chance of standing against Saruman's ring that controls them. All the rings are elemental-based. First boss is a set of Dunlending twins from the Falcon clan given the power over fire and frost, second is a Dunland abomination that controls acid, third one is a troll given lightning. Beat all three of those and it opens up the fourth wing, which takes place in the throne room of Isengard. This fourth boss is an Orc Shaman, who's been given the power of shadow. Beat that and you finally square off on the peak of Isengard, against Saruman himself.

Kyle: So without getting into the Saruman fight – which we'll leave for players to discover – in designing the different encounters with the ring holders, do the elements themselves play into the mechanics of the fights?

Joe: They work into what's going on and how things are presented. The lightning fight is a very position-based battle. He'll light crystals that will electrify parts of the floor, dealing heavy damage – you're basically having chunks of the floor removed from the fight. He'll create ball lightning at his feet that tracks towards a ranged player and explodes. He's got chain lightning that zaps and bounces between different players. All of them are classic "Don’t stand in the fire," "cluster up," and "separate-type" mechanics, but the delivery and presentation is all through the element.

Kyle: Accessing the instances sounds straightforward since they're in a hub.

Jared: I think one of the things we're trying to do with this one that we haven't done in a while is have everybody in a kind of central lobby area where there'll be trainers and all the services they're accustomed to having.

Kyle: And being close to each other visually will help.

Jared: Yeah, it's easy to tie these instances together because they're all based on Saruman. The other thing we're doing for this series of instances is, players can "craft" their own necklace through pieces they get inside the instances, and they'll basically be able to level-up the rarity type as they collect shards. We're going to create our own little forge in this public lobby. So players can come back to this forge and build this necklace that will eventually create a legendary-quality necklace.

Kyle: To get the legendary necklace, players will have to move through the entire series of instances?

Jared: Yes.

Kyle: So there's a carrot to chase from the beginning, beyond experiencing the content. You can chase the dragon, but in this case it's a necklace.

Jared: A dragon necklace?

All: [Groaning and laughter.]

Kyle: Thanks for sitting down to chat, guys!